第八期 Jay Roberge
Tehama资本总裁
今天，《讲述海外矿业人自己的故事》栏目迎来了第一位海外“当地人”Jay Roberge先生。有诗云“不识庐山真面目，只缘身在此山中”，今天就让我们透过Roberge先生这位加拿大当地矿业人的视角来剖析中资企业海外投资中所遇到的问题、引发原因、以及解决办法。站在新的角度，我们会更加认识到自己的问题；站在新的角度，我们会更加了解如何融入世界之流；站在新的角度，我们会更加有信心让中资企业海外投资的巨轮扬帆起航。相信中国海外投资以及整个矿业行业会如诗言“横舟侧畔千帆过，病树前头万木春”。
访谈内容以英文为准，中文翻译仅供参考。
个人简介
Mr. Roberge has nearly 20 years of business and public company experience, having served in several executive management and board positions with various private and public companies. In these roles he has provided management, strategic consulting, M&A advisory and financing services to early and development stage companies. Mr. Roberge is President of Tehama Capital Corp. which generates and originates opportunities in mining, energy and technology. For the past 5 years Mr. Roberge was also Associate Partner to Zimtu Capital Corp., which generates and originates exploration opportunities in the mining sector and built up a portfolio of over fifty publicly listed companies. Mr. Roberge has been involved in a number of transactions involving large Chinese investors and companies. He travels to China on a regular basis, and opened an office in Hong Kong this past January.
Roberge先生曾在多家上市和非上市公司执行管理层及董事会工作，拥有近20年的商务和上市公司工作经验。Roberge先生的角色主要是为早期发展阶段的公司提供管理、战略、并购咨询以及融资服务。Roberge先生现任Tehama资本公司总裁，公司致力于在矿产、能源、科技领域创造和发起商业机会。在过去的5年里，Roberge先生作为Zimtu资本公司的中级合伙人，在矿业领域创造和发起了不少勘探机会，并创建了超过50家上市公司的投资组合。在多个大型中资海外项目交易中，我们也能看到Roberge先生的身影。Roberge先生会定期去中国出差并于去年一月在香港设立了办公室。
小编问题一：
As a Canadian local mining professional, you have been dealing with many Chinese companies and investors. As you see, during the past decade, Chinese companies have invested numerous amount of money overseas but few of them have succeeded. From your perspective, what do you think are the primary issues that lead to the failure of Chinese oversea investments? In order to help Chinese investors increase their oversea investments’ success rate, what suggestions would you give them?
您作为加拿大矿业圈十分活跃的当地代表，这些年也一直在跟很多中国矿业公司及矿业投资人打交道，对过去几年中国海外投资成功率不高的状况，从您的视角看，问题主要出在哪里？对中国矿业投资如何更好的参与国际矿业，您有什么好的建议？
Mr. Roberge
Every specific case is different with different factors at play. However, there are a couple trends that seem to contribute. Its important to understand that when one invests in a company or buys a company they have determined it is a successful company and that it warrants such an investment. The primary key to the success of any company is the company's people. It's the people – the management and staff – that have built the company and have therefore become one of the key assets in the Company. Unfortunately, I see too many times where Chinese companies make an investment or acquisition and start to make changes in staff or make changes that effect the corporate culture of the Company which results in people leaving the company. I often call this “Spielberg's Camera”. Stephen Spielberg is one of the greatest most successful movie and entertainment companies in the world. If you buy is company, you better make sure he is part of the deal or you will be left with nothing more then a camera. Losing him or replacing him would be foolish.
Steve Jobs once said, “I don't hire the best people so I can tell them what to do. I hire the best people so they can tell me what to do.” If you are investing great companies you are investing in great management teams. Support them and learn from them and let them grow the company's value.
Another major problem I see is addressed in Question 4.
具体操作中，起作用的因素视每一个案例的不同而差异性很大，尽管如此，还是能够找出几点共通的因素的。理解这一点很重要，投资人只投资或者收购他们认为成功的公司，而且是投资有保障的公司。任何公司成功的关键是公司的人力资源。正是人力资源-公司管理团队和员工共同建立了公司，因此成为公司的核心资产。然而不幸的是，我看到过很多时候，中国企业投资或收购成功后就开始大刀阔斧地改革，替换员工队伍，或者更换公司文化从而导致员工离开。我将这种现象称为“斯皮尔伯格的镜头”。斯皮尔伯格是一个伟大的世界上最成功的电影娱乐公司，若投资人要收购他的公司，最好确保斯皮尔伯格本人是交易的一部分，失去斯皮尔伯格，收购其公司就显得非常荒唐可笑，因为投资人除了斯皮尔伯格留下的摄像机，什么也得不到。
史蒂夫·乔布斯曾经说过：“我不要雇佣最优秀的员工，而我要教他们做什么，而是要雇佣最优秀的员工，由他们来教我做什么”。投资一个伟大的公司实际上是投资其卓越的管理团队，因此，支持您的管理团队，向他们学习并让他们来提升您公司的价值。
另外一个问题，我会在问题四的回答中提及。
小编问题二：
Regardless of language and culture barriers, you have been doing business with Chinese companies and attracting Chinese investments for many years. What are your thoughts on Chinese companies and Chinese investors? Also, you are very optimistic about the Chinese market; could you please share some opinions on the Chinese market?
知道您不懂汉语，却坚定不移地去中国找投资，您怎么看中国公司和中国投资人？另外，您一直看好中国市场，请您谈谈您对中国市场的看法。
Mr. Roberge
China has been very fortunate to enjoy such an economic revolution and growth over the past 20 plus years which has generated considerable money and wealth. This money represents a considerable capital pool that needs to be invested and diversified. On the other hand, Canada is a country of great resource wealth, as well as technology, manufacturing and other asset classes. Unfortunately, Canada lacks some of the capital to full advance some of these great opportunities. So in my opinion, Canada and China make a great team. I also believe the relationship between the two Countries is only going to grow as Chinese demand for Canadian products grows, and Chinese investment in Canada grows.
I am optimistic about China. It is going through another massive change as it moves towards a consumption economy and becomes an innovator in new products and services. In order to do so it must also open up its market and respect and enforce international property rights.
There will be some challenging times during the Chinese economic transition. Calm minds and investors will prevail and China will succeed. We can not get too emotional when economies go through such changes. Sure there is a slowdown and China’s GDP is at 6.5% (or lower depending who you subscribe to) but percentage in dollar terms is still greater then the dollar amount of 12% GDP 15 years ago. In fact as the Chinese economy gets bigger the GDP percentage must get smaller. It is straight mathematics. But keep in mind the dollar amount of value that smaller percentage represents is higher.
China needs to go through an economic cycle. Cycles happen for reasons and have a great cleansing effect that makes the economy stronger and provides a better foundation for the next up-cycle. So for me when I hear some Chinese economic stats I often view it as a good sign. I sign that things are being cleaned up, bad companies or businesses will get cleaned out of the market, and the remaining will be strong better opportunities. Similar to cycle we are experiencing now in mining.
In fact, I am optimistic for the entire world economy and specifically Asia and SE Asia. China, India and Indonesia represent 1/3 of the global population, not to mention all the other populous countries in between. There are pro-business leaders in these countries and some positive changes coming about.
中国在过去20多年里实现的经济改革和飞速发展令人鼓舞，这20多年来中国积累了巨大的资本和财富，而这些资本代表着一个相当大的资本池，亟待需要寻找多元化的投资机会。另一方面，加拿大拥有得天独厚的自然资源、先进的技术和制造业，以及其他类别的资产，但是加拿大缺少资金支持，无法全面推进去探索这些优质的资源项目。所以，依我看来，加拿大和中国可以成为最好的合作伙伴。我更相信，加中两国之间的关系只会随着中国对加拿大产品需求和中国对加投资额的不断增长而愈发紧密。
我对中国市场持乐观态度。中国正在经历一场重大的变革：中国正在变成一个巨大的消费经济体并成为新产品和新服务领域的创新者。为了达成这一目标，中国必须开放市场，尊重并执行国际产权规则。
在经济转型过程中，中国会时不时面临各种挑战。面对如此大的转型，只有保持冷静的头脑才能确保主流投资者和中国最终的成功。尽管现在中国经济增长速度放缓，GDP增速只有6.5%（或者一些其它订阅的信息来源显示更低的数字），但若以经济体量计，比15年前GDP为12%的时候经济体量还要大。这就是简单的数学，当中国经济这个基数变大时，GDP的百分比自然就变小了。但请记住百分比减少的经济体量的金额却代表更高的价值。
中国需要经历一个完整的经济周期。经济周期的发生是有其原因的，而且会起到清理市场的效果，它会更加刺激经济并为下一个强周期打下坚实的基础。因此，我认为这样的周期对中国来说是好事，是个优胜劣汰的过程，淘汰不良记录的公司及生意，留下的则是实力强大的公司，有更好的机遇在等着他们。类似于我们正经历的矿业市场的周期。
事实上，我对全球的经济尤其是亚洲、东南亚的经济是很乐观的。中国、印度和印度尼西亚的人口占了世界人口的1/3，更不要说其它人口稠密的国家。这些国家的商界领导们正在从政策方面做一些积极的改革。
小编问题三：
We are aware that you have always wanted to establish a primary mining investment fund, what roles do Chinese investors play in such fund? What contribution can Chinese investors make to the fund? What benefits can Chinese investors get from the fund?
知道您一直想建立一个针对初中级矿业项目的投资基金，您认为中国矿业投资人如何参与其中？如何为其添砖加瓦并从中获益？
Mr. Roberge
Yes, I believe there is a great opportunity for a mining fund to acquire and invest in early and development stage assets. In such a scenario investor's participate as “Limited Partners” with specific rights to benefit on the returns generated by the fund. I am looking at a number of new investment strategies that would diversify the deployment of capital; this may include streaming, hybrid versions thereof and off take scenarios.
是的，我认为一个矿业基金收购和投资早期开发阶段的资产有非常好的机会。在这样的情况下，投资者以明确权利的“有限合伙人”的形式参与进来并从该基金带来回报中受益。我最近正在研究一些新的投资策略从而使基金的发展更多样化，这其中包括流融资，混合形式及有包销协议参与的情况。
小编问题四：
In the past, many Chinese companies that have already invested in oversea mining markets all wish to become the biggest shareholder and have control over the company; however, a portion of these stakeholders have found such operation method unsuccessful. What are your thoughts and comments on this investing technique?
针对过去很多中国矿业投资人大多希望投资后获得控股权，但真正控股后的运作并不理想，对此，您有什么建议？
Mr. Roberge
I agree. You have to clearly understand if you are “investing”and taking 51% of a company… you are not investing at all. You are buying or acquiring. If you are going to buy 51% why not buy 90-100%. Further, this has a tremendous impact on Question 1. The mindset and strategy are flawed and ultimately come at the cost of failure. So it is critical to be very clear on the difference between investing and acquiring.
At 51% and “taking control” mindset you lose the motivation and support of the people that made the Company successful. Secondly, if the company is publicly trading, you ultimately lose the support of the secondary market because the public investing community will view the company as no longer being “public” but now being a “private” Chinese company. Liquidity and volume in the markets diminishes and ultimately so does the market cap of the Company.
我同意。您必须清楚的分清您是不是在“投资”，如若是“投资”并购买了公司51%以上的资产，您压根不是投资，而是收购。如果是收购51%，那为什么不收购90-100%呢 ? 这也是问题1中，中国海外投资成功率不高的另一大因素。投资时的心态和有缺陷的策略最终导致投资者付出惨重的代价。所以，分清投资和收购的区别是非常重要的。
抱着控股51%以上的心态，会使公司缺乏发展的动力并失去能使公司成功运营的员工的支持。其次，若是上市公司，那么投资者会失去二级市场的支持，因为公投资本市场会认为该公司已经不是一家“上市”公司，而是一个中国的“私有”公司，其在市场的流动性和交易量逐渐减少，最终公司的市场价值也会随之缩水。
小编问题五：
What do you think is a good strategy to invest in oversea mining projects given the current market situation? If you have $200m, how would you arrange your investment in the mining industry?
在目前的矿业形势下，您认为什么才是当前海外矿业投资的明智策略？打个比方，如果手上有2亿美元，您将如何在矿业投资中分配这些资金？
Mr. Roberge
Go long. There are some fantastic assets available in this market. Slowly but surely they are being acquired leaving fewer options available. Most interest is in near-term or producing assets. These assets are few in numbers and will be acquired by strong companies. Exploration and development stage companies are greater in numbers, but represent a great opportunity. Most of the weak opportunities will simply fold which provides clarity for the remaining assets of merit.
In terms of a $200M to invest in mining, I would invest now and across all stages in a variety of commodities and commit to supporting early stage assets through to production. Certainly there are opportunities in some of the more traditional elements but I would also consider some of the more tech driven elements like rare earths, lithium, vanadium, cobalt and graphite. Lithium is quite hot right now so one must be careful. Out of the 80 plus companies talking about lithium projects only 1-2 are needed and only 1-2 might amount to anything. It is still a very interesting element but do your homework if you are investing for the long term. Cobalt for me is the bigger concern as most of the global supply in Cobalt comes from copper and nickel production. The only primary production is out of the DRC which can be very unstable. China understands the value of cobalt and is currently stock piling this key element for battery production.
买进。目前市场上有许多极好的资产。这些资产正在慢慢地被收购，留在市场上的选择会越来越少。最令人感兴趣的是那些临近投产或在产的资产，但是这些项目很少而且会被那些实力雄厚的公司收购。勘探及开发阶段项目在市场上占多数，且充满着机遇，但是在优质项目面前，那些仅有微弱机会的项目往往在弄清楚剩余资产价值的时候最终被彻底放弃。
如果有2亿美元来投资矿业，我会将资金立即投入各个大宗商品、覆盖早期阶段一直到投产各个阶段的众多公司里去。当然，一些传统金属市场会有机会，同时我也会考虑一些技术驱动的新兴金属，例如：稀土、锂、钒、钴以及石墨烯。锂市场现状非常火热，但是投资者必须非常谨慎。80多家公司谈论锂的公司中真正感兴趣的可能只有1-2家，而可能谈成的也就是1-2家。尽管如此，锂还是一个非常值得关注的金属，如果想要长期投资锂，必须做足充分的研究。钴对我来说最大的担忧就是全球大部分钴都来自于铜矿和镍矿的伴生，唯一一个早期的供应十分不稳定的在产钴矿还位于刚果民主共和国附近。中国现在意识到了钴的价值，现在正在囤积这个电池制造业的核心金属。
非常荣幸能回答这些问题并跟大家分享我的想法。
Thank you for the opportunity to answer your questions and share my
thoughts.
感谢Roberge先生在中国出差期间积极配合我们的访谈，分享他的经验，为大家带来宝贵的建议！同时，我们也感谢金文洪先生为这次访谈提供素材！
“讲述海外矿业人自己的故事”系列活动由加拿大华人矿业协会主办，金堆城加拿大资源公司协办并统稿。